Talk:Volksdeutsche

Deutschstämmige doesn't mean "ethnic Germans", it means "of German origin"

Ethnic Germans are people whose first language is German, even if they have no German citizenship. They call themselves "Deutsche" (Germans) as members of a German minority ("deutsche Minderheit"), historically also "Volksdeutsche" (although this term was abused by Nazis who excluded Jewish Germans from the definition "volksdeutsch", which is nonsense. Of course, Jewish Germans are "Volksdeutsche", "ethnic Germans", too). To avoid the correct translation for "ethnic Germans" which is "Volksdeutsche", we could also use the word "ethnische Deutsche", but the word "Deutschstämmige" is not an accurate translation for the term "ethnic Germans", because "Deutschstämmige" just means "of German origin". Not everyone who is "deutschstämmig" (of German origin) is an ethnic German, because normally, someone who is just "of German origin" doesn't have German as his first language or he doesn't speak German at all, like millions of U. S. citizens who have German family names. Just use "ethnische Deutsche" to translate "ethnic Germans", if you don't want to call them "Volksdeutsche". But remember, the Nazi abuse was just to exclude Jewish Germans from the definition, although they were and are Germans, too. 11:45, 11-12-2012 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.118.92.196 (talk) 10:48, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Jews are an ethnicty themselves. So I don't know what you are talking about them being "ethnic German" given how ethnicity is how others view someone and how one views themselves. 107.144.132.45 (talk) 14:03, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Ambiguity

Again a possible ambiguity: "treated by the German occupation as a person of Slavic lower class". This means that there are several Slavic classes, and that the occupator saw non-signers as a member of one of those classes. Could it be instead that the author meant that the Germans saw Slavs as people of a lower class than themselves? In that case the sentence should run something like "treated by the German occupation as a Slavic person (which the Germans considered to be of a lower class)".--branko

Sounds good.

Signing volkslist

The result of refusing of signing volkslist very often was much worse than simply "being treating as Slavic person". People IIRC were forced to sign the lists. szopen

If the Germans felt sure that you were Germanic (in their definition) and you refused to sign the list you could be shot as a traitor. Instead of simply being deported to central Poland as a Slav. Signing the Volklist also made you eligible to be drafted into the German army but at least your family wouldn't be deported. Rmhermen 15:28, Oct 30, 2003 (UTC)

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No proofs? No serious links, sources?

To this edit - what are the proofs, all of that people or the most of them did it?

"Often the choice was either to sign and be regarded as a traitor by the Polish, or not to sign and be treated by the Nazi occupation as a traitor of the Germanic race." - it seems to be a very difficult choice - to sign or to must left his town. There were some 3 million PZPR-members in Poland till 1990 - were the most of them active communists or SB agents? Of course not! AN(Ger) 20:39, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Nazi Fifth Column Activities: A List of References", Library of Congress, 1943

"The German fifth column in the Second World War", by L. de Jong

"The German Fifth Column in Poland", Hutchinson & Co Ltd, London

--Emax 09:20, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It does not mean, it were activities of the most of these poople. An example: A brother of my grandmother, born at the early 1900s in the German Empire (before 1918), member of the Armia Krajowa in Poznan, arrested and executed. There were more such cases in the into the IIIrd German Empire incorporated areas. In may seemed in the eastern Poland other. AN(Ger) 11:18, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The problem is discussed on User_talk:AN(Ger) (in Polish) too. As i wrote in Polish - if 10 words explain something not good enough, it may be necessary to write 100 or 200 words - it is much better as to write something what is false. It could be better to write a exactly %-number of the Volksdeutsche, where were involved in the espionage for the nazis etc. - 50%? 10%? 5%? It could be better to explain the differences between the people born (in the mixed polish-german or german-polish families) in the Wilhelmians German Empire before 1918 as german citizens (where signed something only to not to be removed into the Generalna Gubernia) and some people in eastern Poland or Yugoslavia, which had never been german citizens before.

To write, all or the most Volksdeutsche have done the espionage etc. is POV without historical proofs. BTW: It is not allowed to write POV and to remove {NPOV} as someone has the POV realised. AN(Ger) 05:50, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Volksdeutsche vs. Reichsdeutsche

The definitions at the beginning seem a big vague -- if Volksdeutsche are in some way supposed "ethnic Germans" living outside of Germany, and Reichsdeutsche are German citizens, what are people who are "ethnically German", who live in Germany but don't have German citizenship? What are people with German citizenship who reside abroad? Does a Volksdeutscher lose his volksdeutschisness by obtaining German citizenship?