Talk:Rudolf Steiner

Frequently asked questions

The main points of this FAQ (Talk:Rudolf Steiner#FAQ) can be summarized as:

Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy requires that minority views not be given undue emphasis.

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Q1: Most people who are cited in the article are not spiritual scientists and are most likely materialists or theologically orthodox Christian believers. Isn't this article biased?

A1: Our policies on Wikipedia, in particular WP:WEIGHT and WP:FRINGE, require us to provide coverage to views based on their prominence within reliable sources, and we must reflect the opinion of the scientific community and of the scholarly community (mainstream academia) as accurately as possible.

You should understand that, by its very nature, Wikipedia offers absolutely no remedy against citing mainstream scholarly works. Clearly expressed at [1] by a Waldorf teacher that The article references peer-reviewed, largely academic sources, the opposite of propaganda.

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Schizophrenic

Now we have two psychiatrists who have diagnosed Rudolf Steiner with schizophrenia. Unlike (I presume) Wolfgang Treher, C.G. Jung actually met Rudolf Steiner, not to speak that Jung was much more famous than Treher. tgeorgescu (talk) 00:10, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And yet somehow the man managed to write books, lead and develop a community, a schooling system, and create architectural masterpieces. Stupid. Project Apollo (talk) 21:37, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Some psychiatrists believe that Gurus are unmedicated mild schizophrenics in a constant psychosis, I can also say the same exact thing here. You shout words that are true, but again, it has little to do with the article, and the situation here. Fadix 18:27, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

Price, John S; Stevens, Anthony (1998). "The Human Male Socialization Strategy Set". Evolution and Human Behavior. 19 (1). Elsevier BV: 57–70. doi:10.1016/s1090-5138(97)00105-0. ISSN 1090-5138. Many studies of cults and revitalization movements have noted that the leaders are susceptible both to auditory hallucinations and sudden changes in beliefs. The schizotype, we suggest, is someone who has the capacity to shed the commonly held and socially determined world view of his natal group, and to create a unique and arbitrary world view of his own, into which he may indoctrinate others and become a prophet, or fail to indoctrinate others and become a psychotic patient.

Besides, if Steiner had freedom of speech, so did Treher and Jung. All of them wrote opinions which are germane to this article. tgeorgescu (talk) 06:46, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Besides, we don't tell that what Treher and Jung claimed would be true or false, we just state they made such claims. tgeorgescu (talk) 23:45, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Univocality

In respect to the claims about Steiner's Docetism, Adoptionism, Nestorianism, and Gnosticism: I don't believe in the univocality of the Bible, why I would believe in the univocality of mainstream WP:SCHOLARSHIP? tgeorgescu (talk) 16:19, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

NOT gnostic

id suggest removing this introductory statement that Steiner was influenced by Gnosticism as it's too speculative. Citing academic opinions on the nature of Steiner's work isn't the same as reading the words from the man himself. Anthroposophy is the study of man and the cosmos - it's more aligned to Hermeticism than it is to gnosticism as gnosticism is a faith based system, whereas Anthroposophy is a scientific examination (whether people accept it to be or not). He does not focus on the idea of a Demiurge, but utilizes the belief systems and names of and in multiple religions.

Here is a quote from Steiner: "... And if people who venture to judge of Anthroposophy to-day, would take the trouble to observe these things, they would not fall into the calumny of confusing Anthroposophy with what is really only a dishing up of ancient Gnosticism, or similar things." - Feb 06, 1921, public lecture

Project Apollo (talk) 21:34, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The fact he is influenced by gnosticism is hardly speculative and clearly well cited given that you had to remove five wp:RELIABLESOURCES supporting the claim—blindlynx 01:49, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Project Apollo, see especially Was Steiner a Gnostic? Yes and no. which is a verbatim quote inside our article. See also the quote below it. It's a complicated matter, and cannot be answered simplistically.

To delve into terminology, "Gnostic" means "one who knows," rather than "one who believes." So, Anthroposophy is a scientific examination does not exactly help your argument that Steiner isn't Gnostic.

Hermeticism, Gnosticism, and Rosicrucianism are not mutually exclusive terms. Also, you say it like it can be only black or white, while in fact there are nuances.

So, to answer the charge, Anthroposophy is not only a dishing up of ancient Gnosticism, but it is certainly influenced by Ancient Gnosticism. I mean, Steiner did not take everything from Gnosticism at face value, but was certainly influenced by it (to the extent it was known in Steiner's time).

Either he was a full-blown Gnostic, or he was no Gnostic at all is a false dilemma. Ancient Gnosticism means a bewildering variety of sects and religious beliefs, to the extent that some scholars have questioned if speaking of Ancient Gnosticism has any meaning at all. I don't know if Steiner knew that, but present-day scholars know it full well.

Steiner being influenced by Gnosticism has been described based upon at least 13 WP:RS, several of them being written by full professors who are experts in this field. What about the Catholic Church, what made them decide that Anthroposophy is a neognostic heresy? I did not analyze their statements, but two elements are obvious: reincarnation and Steiner's Christology, plus a suggestion that the Holy Trinity does not mean the seven Elohim. tgeorgescu (talk) 06:42, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If I wanted to smear Steiner as a Gnostic, why did I WP:CITE two WP:RS which say that's only half-true? tgeorgescu (talk) 19:11, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Rudolf Steiner's official journal was called Lucifer Gnosis. My emphasis is not upon Lucifer, like that of theological prudes, but upon Gnosis. This is at least a token he moved inside (neo)Gnostic circles. tgeorgescu (talk) 10:29, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So, was he a Gnostic? The answer is neither yes nor no: he was schooled in Gnosticism and he was eclectic. tgeorgescu (talk) 07:25, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Why is RS listed under 'Unsolved Deaths'?

Hi, there seems to be no mystery about it. T 84.208.78.193 (talk) 23:20, 10 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The citation on Unsolved deaths for this is:

Heinen-Anders, Michael (2010). Aus anthroposophischen Zusammenhängen: Beiträge zu Anthroposophie, Dreigliederung und Esoterik (in German). BoD – Books on Demand. ISBN 978-3839130322.

"Books on Demand" means that it is self-published & self-published sources are largely not acceptable. It probably should be removed. Please bring this up at Talk:Unsolved deaths.

The enwiki Rudolf Steiner article itself & the German verson are both silent on the cause of his death. Peaceray (talk) 02:45, 11 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, googling 'was rudolf steiner poisoned?' shows that there is indeed a discussion in the milieu, invoking a multitude of causes, from milk to demons. The issue is muddled by many voices and few facts. One such voice is RS himself, who claimed that in his condition, food might act as poison. If so, perhaps he was poisoned; a certain sandwich is actually mentioned as the likely culprit. However, it seems RS suffered from cancer of the stomach, and neither doctors nor the police seem to have remarked on his death nor investigated it as other than a death from disease. No comments made, no action taken. What remains are suspicions, theories, accusations - not enough, I would say, to make such theories official. The unsolved deaths category lists cases with tangible, inexplicable circumstances as determined by fact, and this should be upheld as a criterion for inclusion. T 84.208.78.193 (talk) 21:11, 14 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Freemasonry

I found this on a Masonic site: Though no one knows exactly when or how Steiner came into Freemasonry, in 1906 Steiner became the Master of Mystica Aeterna Lodge, a part of the order of Memphis and Mizraim, which traces its lineage back to Cagliostro and the great alchemists of the late renaissance. He would write heavily about Freemasonry, its connection to the mystical symbols of the Rosicrucians, and the whole of Esoteric philosophy. Though all Masonic Lodges in Germany would be closed in 1914 at the outbreak of World War I, Steiner continued to be influenced by Freemasonry Bostonglobestrangler (talk) 21:13, 2 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Yup, John Yarker and Theodor Reuss were selling Masonic chartas. Steiner bought one from them. I think Steiner was pretty much like Papus: he had high degrees in Masonry, without having the first three degrees.

Steiner was not exactly flattering about Freemasonry, I remember from his Temple Legend that he said "Freemasonry is now like an empty shell, which will have to be filled with life" or something to that extent. See https://www.google.com/search?q=steiner+freemasonry+%22empty+shell%22&oq=steiner+freemasonry+%22empty+shell%22 tgeorgescu (talk) 05:45, 3 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]